Even the bookies are stunned - been watching BBC - this is amazing!!
I lived in London for years - and I can't believe how this will change Great Britain if it is BRexit.
Definitely independence for Scotland, Wales, Ireland - 4 separate countries?
Is that even imaginable?
I don't see an independence vote for Wales. Neither for Northern Ireland. Scotland can make a case for another Independence vote though. Every district in Scotland voted to Remain.
It is inevitable that NI and Scotland will hold independence referanda quickly and wim.
So the Brits in the "shires' have voted that they would rather be "Little England" than "Great Britain"?
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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
and in some, perhaps many, cases it will be justified. The motivations of many Brexit supporters may simply be racist. However, the fact remains that the EU has become a bastion of Neoliberalism that has fucked over the people of Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Italy. There are many on the left that support leaving the EU for those reasons. I, personally, am ambivalent. I get a visceral pleasure from the neoliberal, corporate leadership of the EU being kicked in the groin, and I am encouraged by the fact that a population has finally rebelled against the inevitability of globalization and neoliberalism. On the other hand, Farage, Johnson and racism. I just hope that the British left will be able to make something positive out of this.
I don't know enough about the issue to have an informed opinion, but if the Establishment wants them to stay in it's probably a bad idea and I hope the voters decide to break free. Power to the people!
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"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
the people in charge of the "leave the EU" movement have the same plans as Trump: They'll figure out what happens next later, immigrants bad, make britain great again.
by brits on both sides... the thought that struck me (and is relevant to the situation here in the US) is the constant gridlock over everything caused by language, cultural, economic, and ethnic differences. the EU is little more than an economy, because they can't get anything else done due to the gridlock... and it's rough around the edges for an economy, because some countries are (for many reasons) clearly draining the economy while others are clearly filling in for them.
one of the arguments had to do with any sort of military action attempted by the EU.. whose soldiers do you send in first? the ones from the most economically depressed countries? the ones from countries out of favor of the leadership? or do you send the strongest forces in as the speedbump at the onset of war? who decides, and how? this is assuming the EU ever managed to figure out how they'd build and maintain a standing army.. where does it come from? what language does it speak?
some of the leave folks are surely nationalist, probably racist, etc, but i do think there's a reasonable argument for more sovereignty, especially from the countries on the top end of the resource pile, if not solely because of the universal gridlock.
I think this one may have been implemented poorly though. At some point, we need to have some sort of diplomatic and economic unity among nations. The EU is a good idea, and so is the UN, but both are lacking something. Could it be neutrality that's lacking?
…proposal on the planet right now. And China is willing to build out the infrastructure to make it possible. Uniting the world by connecting all people and markets and cultures, even the landlocked ones, to one another via infrastructure. The idea is to bring opportunity and independence to the people in undeveloped nations by giving them a 21st century infrastructure connected to all of the Eastern Hemisphere. Peace cannot be established when there are tragic levels of inequality in the world. It's a staggering investment they are making.
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People can't even manage and wrest control of thier little blocs. EU is homogeneous. Makes sense for them to forge a working agreement. The entire world sounds more like domination and a giant blender.
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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Since the first modern human tribe wandered in from Central Asia.
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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
The more distant rulers are from those they rule over, the less the needs of the "peons" matter to those rulers. How well does your state represent you compared to your town? How well does federal government represent you compared to your state? Imagine just how corrupt a world government would be.
No thank you. A world government would be no more accountable to you and I than international corporations.
know the term. They are made up of sovereign nations. These nations are centuries old. Look at their histories. Some of them have fought each other over the centuries, too. I'm watching the developments as I don't really know their economies. Rec'd!
...the people favor things that are ignorant, racist, and not sophisticated enough to get beyond the sloganeering. Sometimes being against what the Establishment wants is just reactionary mob rule. The pro-Brexit forces made all the same arguments as Trump -- nationalist, racist, anti-immigrant and anti-regulation arguments that should be met with drision in the 21st Century, but unfortuantely resonate with people who feel they're losing and they're angry and they'll vote for anyone who expresses anger even if they're not making sense.
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…that the species, as a group, possesses. It's what the Declaration of Independence was all about. And the revolutionary war. It's the issue in Scotland, and Ukraine, and anywhere where Referendums and votes of No Confidence are cast. Those times that the people as a majority are denied the Human Right of Self Determination, centuries of human tragedy ensue until there is either a redo or a total genocide. Self Determination is the only path to peace.
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about this issue, couldn't care less, and believe it amounts to jack either way. But, hey... maybe the Brits are #FeelingTheBern. Welcome to the revolution!
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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
It is a rejection of the last 40 years of Neoliberalism just the same.
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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
are out of touch. Great discussion on BBC from Labour representative.
Income stagnation and insecurity have led Labour voters to embrace an idea driven by the right.
This is the future if Clinton does not address stagnating income - which hasn't increased since 1999.
The right is going to win - they are winning across Europe. Le Pen is advancing, and the French Socialists are moving right. The UK IP just won a huge win.
And Clinton has not a clue how to address income inequality.
Witness, for instance, the protests in France against austerity measures being pushed by a "Socialist." This is the dialectic of neoliberalism and nationalism at work. The "Left" has become neoliberal, leading the rank-and-file to become nationalists, and the nationalists are right-wing populists.
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'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
His party is pseudo-left, neoliberal. The FN (the party headed by Marine Le Pen) is actually much more pro-worker in terms of pensions, social safety net, etc. than the Socialists and supports a less belligerent foreign policy. Her vision of France is nationalist but pro-worker. To be sure, Jean Marie Le Pen (Marine's father and founder of the FN) was and is a Reagonomics-racist and there are certainly elements of that in the party now. Marine's niece, Marion, a rising star, has a very different vision (more like Jean Marie's). However, just characterizing the FN as right wing is not accurate or adequate. Hollande? Just another psueudo-progressive neoliberal like both Clintons and Blair. In Europe and the UK, as here, if the left does not present a meaningful, coherent alternative in which working people have dencent lives then people will stumble in a different direction.
People see through the con of New Democrats/New Labour. The confidence of the pundits and wonks that Brexit will certainly fail has the tone and integrity of confident assertions that Trump can never win.
"People see through the con of New Democrats/New Labour"
Jeremy Corbyn now heads Labor -- so, you're right about that . But Corbyn wants to stay in the EU. He's not raging about open borders and too much regulation. So, what does your observation have to do with Brexit?
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But, that doesn't make it better. It's simplistic sloganeering. It's not the rise of facism, but it's the same kind of nativist populism that fed facism. I'm not positing that it's a choice between one or the other, but if it were....the last great surge of nativist-nationalism in Europe was not so good for my relatives....and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing anything that even faintly resembled that.
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They can't fix it, and they just want to get rid of it. If that means blowing it up, so be it. I can't believe Americans haven't hit their tipping point. It appears we are better sheeples.
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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
We've risen up against ourselves before, albeit for terrible reasons, and it was a horrific process. Nobody wants to go through that again. Also, we are the home base of the largest, best funded, most technologically advanced military in the world. Only the self-deluded want to rise up against that military on its home soil.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Did you join the class action lawsuit against the DNC? If not, everyone should. Declaring war againt the Democrats is as easy as voting Trump and claiming victory. As parents use to say in the olden days, 'this is going to hurt me a lot more than it hurts you".
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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Trumpism will, though, prevail, as will someone like Trump in 2020, unless the Berniecrats can come up with an alternative. The fact that Hillary Clinton is being gifted the Presidency does not change this reality one iota.
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'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
I am still not sure of the level of "nativism" that is actually brownshirt racism and that which is , like some of the left, trying to deconstruct large-scale government. I am confused, seeing both in my family (loosely defined). But there is much broadbrushing going on; individuals may have very different views other than anger and frustration. Those many of us share, same in Brexit vote? GB will disassemble.
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and not merely playing a foil to Hillary, could indeed win through cratered turnout. IOW, everyone gets so disgusted they stay home; the small, enthusiastic minority of voters who supports him wins the day.
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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The "Left" has become neoliberal, leading the rank-and-file to become nationalists, and the nationalists are right-wing populists.
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Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
Brexit is a reaction to the consequences of of Neoliberal policies. So is the popularity of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders and the lethal blows that both US parties have suffered. These are all reactions to the consequences of Neoliberal policies.
Hillary is not the fool, however. The American people are. They had 250 years to make certain that each new generation was healthier, more educated, and more secure than the prior generation. That is the key to continuous civilization. If the people fail at that, they fail utterly.
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The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
with including Senator Sanders' agenda as neoliberalism. Perhaps someone should ask him?
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Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
The IMF is split it seems - to some degree. Several years ago a similar thing happened when the research arm wrote an article in favor of capital controls in certain circumstances - especially for developing nations like Brazil.
I remember, staff members, who produce "research papers" in the IMF that are not viewed favoritely along the political lines of their superiors, lead to early retirement for some researchers. ... especially for those from "banana republics".
...the IMF is not a nation-state or a ruler. It's a carnival barker, with multiple personality disorder, standing outside the world's largest payday lender.
Once a sovereign nation is lured inside and borrows money (largely because it personally enriches national politicians), the IMF sends out the goons of the World Bank to collect. That's something we learned from Perkin's "Confession of an Economic Hitman." The corrupt politicians of Greece took the money, so did Argentina's and Ukraine's and every other suffering bastard on the planet. Now the One Percent own their natural resources, public works, and cultural treasures.
Yellowstone and Yosemite (or their commonwealth equivalents) will be up on the auction block before this is over for the American people.
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The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
The "left" in most European countries, like America, isn't Left at all. They've become center-right generally, and pretty decidedly Right on economic matters -- the issues that are driving popular discontent.
Without a Left alternative, the 1% are giving us a choice between Right and Far Right. When Right fails, where will people go? They're being herded toward the fascist extremes. We've seen this happen before. It doesn't turn out well.
who lost to Corbyn want him to stand down. I do not understand why the left here and everywhere will not take on the globalizing neoliberal/neocon's 1%er's posing as moderate or center. The internecine fighting in the Labour party is much like what were seeing here. Seems to me to be ass backwards politics for the left factions to use fear of the lunatic end of the RW to fall in line and call for unity and go along with austerity and endless war.
New Labour is blaming Corbyn because he would not 'reach across the isle' in unity with the remain Tory factions. Why blame this on the voters who rejected the EU. They can't all have been bigoted nationalistic fascist's. People have had enough of these anti-democratic global bankster's who rule the world. To many people they are just as scary as the lunatic fringe. Centralization is not always a good thing when people everywhere are denied a democratic choice.
I remember in the last election in the UK the Blairite's were pumping out UKIP fear like crazy. How many seats did UKIP gain vs. Labour? Greece's election was the same wall to wall fear of the extreme right. People did not turn to the faicist party they elected the left-wing Syriza party. I agree with you Doc. Cliniton/Blarite, neoliberal's who only offer austerity and bloody endless war should not blame the voters for voting against them. If Trump wins it's not the populist democratic voters fault for not being able to stomach the lesser evils of the Clinton's machine. Labour should stop appeasing the neoliberal/necon oligarch's posing as the Left and build Labour into a viable alternative.
The only thing for certain is that the markets bet wrong. VERY, VERY WRONG!
This past week the markets spiked on expectations that the British voter would believe the scaremongering and vote Bremain.
They were wrong. British voters didn't believe it, or didn't care, and now the markets will panic sell because they are on the wrong side of a bet.
That is assuming that the establishment won't just rig a close vote for Bremain like they would in the good 'ol U. S. of A.
I have been following this as I followed the referendum for Scotland to separate from the UK and be its own country. The fearmongering seemed to win then, but I don't know that it's taken hold this time. Seems to me one should be for their exit--being part of a group seems to me would make it easier to eradicate borders and sovereignty.
Capitalism as currently practiced is far too abusive and exploitative and depends upon unlimited growth and resource degradation. We need a new sustainable economic model as we transition into a post-industrial civilization.
invested in gold will make huge profits? We can see who the losers are, those who bought into the "smoke and mirrors" of derivative schemes and the wisdom of "free markets" and greed.
As Alan Greenspan said after the 2008 crash, "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms,"
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Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
The UK is not as easy to punish as Greece. They never joined the Euro luckily. Plus, too many big financial companies are based there. Punishing the UK means punishing the world. I would hope that TPTB are not crazy enough to try it.
mandatory and that politics will take over. Don't know if its true or not.
"What happens next in the event of a vote to leave is therefore a matter of politics not law. It will come down to what is politically expedient and practicable. The UK government could seek to ignore such a vote; to explain it away and characterise it in terms that it has no credibility or binding effect (low turnout may be such an excuse). Or they could say it is now a matter for parliament, and then endeavour to win the parliamentary vote. Or ministers could try to re-negotiate another deal and put that to another referendum. There is, after all, a tradition of EU member states repeating referendums on EU-related matters until voters eventually vote the “right” way.'
It's hard to see how a UK government can ignore this. This is a process that will take some years -- but, if a gov't has any interest in staying in the EU, it will have to have a new vote. I think the only way that comes about is if there is a new EU treaty.
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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
As was Northern Ireland. Both areas are now more pro-EU than they were when the country voted in 1975. The rest of the 'country' has moved significanty in the other direction.
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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
He is a graphics designer by trade. He also published this exact article over at LOF earlier in June. His tip jar was hidden, but he was not banned.
I believe this article is wishful thinking at best. If Obama allows Hillary to be indicted, testimony in court could prove even more damaging to him than if he somehow stops her indictment. His history is on that side. Carl Levin's Senate committee sent enough information forward to the DOJ that they could have handed down indictments to bankers. I believe Obama had a huge hand in stopping them. Still, it is a possibility that he will allow the FBI and DOJ to proceed.
The other possibility is that Obama allows the DOJ to indict key associates of Clinton without Clinton herself being indicted. That presents a very interesting scenario, politically, as to how much damage would fall upon her. Perhaps such a scenario would damage her and Bill's power to such an extent that they would no longer control the Democratic party. Then Obama has the opportunity to fill that power vacuum.
The writer misses one point that I have made and that is there is no way that the establishment and Obama are going to allow Bernie to be the nominee. The establishment is neo-liberal and so is Obama. Bernie is not. The neo-liberal power structure must be preserved at all costs.
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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
50% Welsh I'm happy to see my ancestors current evolution voting Brexit. I may be a whatever you call it but I am all in for for any decentralization of the powers that rule the world. I have no political affiliation at this point with the internecine absurd political breakdowns of mass deception on the so called left right or 'moderate' choices we are given globally that support the intolerable status quo, the infamous 'world as we find it'.
Who gives a rats ass if IKIP or the rabid Republicans in the US are for decentralization because anti immigrants or racists are for or against Brexist or breaking up in the grip of centralized politics. Why continue down this road? Why not break up these too big's that rule the world including the EU. Like the Davos, IMF, World Bank crowd is somehow better then the RW lunatics we fear so much. Such a false choice.
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. I cannot root for any of these fuckers who would have you believe that people need to knuckle under and accept this nasty centralized world we live in as better then the alternative. The argument which plays the left with the fear of the right. Reality is not binary and politics that pit us against each other for political stances does nothing to break down the grip of the entities that proclaim inevitability and offer nothing but fascism corporate global rule Davos style.
So there you go. I'm rooting for Brexit. So what's up with the Scots people? I have no idea why they would be so into supporting the EU? Man oh man do we as humans need to stop believing in the current political breakdowns of mass deception and stop supporting any movement that tells you to be afraid of busting up centralization of the powers that b could be worse oh yeah.
how will staying in the EU help the Scots or the Northern Irish get independence from Britain? I'm confused with this line of reasoning. Why would they think the EU is any way to independence. Seems to me to be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe all of us globally including the people in the US should stop thinking of politics a zero sum game where the measure of reality is gauged and calculated by the fuckers who rule the world.
but majority of English voted to leave and majority of Scots to remain. I believe the logic is they are once again being forced to follow England which could force another vote for independence if they win they would still be in the EU(maybe short term) but separate from England. Which is what most Scots have wanted for about a 1000 yrs.
break from England because they couldn't break from the Pound and have their own currency in a globalized world.
So, they think they can break with England and adopt the Euro instead.
Of course, they could have their own currency, but understanding why they could requires looking at how sovereign currencies and trade under a floating exchange rate system actually works.
But unfortunately, even the "left" is stuck in outdated gold standard and fixed exchange rate mentality, and continuing this confusion is essential in continuing austerity arguments, so the MSM, our politicians, etc.... continue to act like they really don't understand the difference.
Part of it may be psychological and pragmatic too.
If England is the country that has historically been the bully, you need alliances in order to keep the bully in check, and perhaps there's a view that the EU is a more neutral broker than England. At this point too, the EU may be even more favorably inclined to supporting an independent Scotland. The bigger issue is the common currency.
They like being part of Europe, irrespective of the relationship with the English -- although, being part of the EU meant greater respect for their rights. The EU has long been a beacon of freedom indeed for minorities and for the economically repressed, but it has seemed to lose its way in recent years. The European Court of Justice has still been a real stalwart, but the other organs have largely been captured by the economic elites who have favored the German agenda.
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there are real technical economic issues involved with a split that need to be put in place first.
e.g. Scotland needs to build up its cash reserves prior to a split and it needs to commit to having its own currency.
The idea of leaving the UK and yet forfeiting monetary power to Bank of England is crazy. If Scotland is going to make a break and wants the split to be successful it needs to prepare for some short-term pain and create a situation where it can also maintain independence over its own monetary policy. Adopting the euro would also be ill-advised (just ask Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain or Italy). Monetary independence is important.
Comments
This was what came of a Google search "Brexit":
46.3% Reporting
Votes
Remain a member of the European Union
48.6%
6,581,905
Leave the European Union
51.4%
6,947,780
'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS!
Even the bookies are stunned - been watching BBC - this is amazing!!
I lived in London for years - and I can't believe how this will change Great Britain if it is BRexit.
Definitely independence for Scotland, Wales, Ireland - 4 separate countries?
Is that even imaginable?
Wales voted Leave
I don't see an independence vote for Wales. Neither for Northern Ireland. Scotland can make a case for another Independence vote though. Every district in Scotland voted to Remain.
War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series
NI voted massively to stay.
It is inevitable that NI and Scotland will hold independence referanda quickly and wim.
So the Brits in the "shires' have voted that they would rather be "Little England" than "Great Britain"?
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
The corporate media will demonize the Brexit forces
and in some, perhaps many, cases it will be justified. The motivations of many Brexit supporters may simply be racist. However, the fact remains that the EU has become a bastion of Neoliberalism that has fucked over the people of Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Italy. There are many on the left that support leaving the EU for those reasons. I, personally, am ambivalent. I get a visceral pleasure from the neoliberal, corporate leadership of the EU being kicked in the groin, and I am encouraged by the fact that a population has finally rebelled against the inevitability of globalization and neoliberalism. On the other hand, Farage, Johnson and racism. I just hope that the British left will be able to make something positive out of this.
It does look like the EU has some pretty unhealthy
ties to international banking.
OTOH, I guess England has now officially had time enough to forget the last time(s) they failed to monitor the Germans carefully...
BBC online has most recent numbers eom
I admit
I don't know enough about the issue to have an informed opinion, but if the Establishment wants them to stay in it's probably a bad idea and I hope the voters decide to break free. Power to the people!
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
From what I understand
the people in charge of the "leave the EU" movement have the same plans as Trump: They'll figure out what happens next later, immigrants bad, make britain great again.
i've read/listened to some commentary
by brits on both sides... the thought that struck me (and is relevant to the situation here in the US) is the constant gridlock over everything caused by language, cultural, economic, and ethnic differences. the EU is little more than an economy, because they can't get anything else done due to the gridlock... and it's rough around the edges for an economy, because some countries are (for many reasons) clearly draining the economy while others are clearly filling in for them.
one of the arguments had to do with any sort of military action attempted by the EU.. whose soldiers do you send in first? the ones from the most economically depressed countries? the ones from countries out of favor of the leadership? or do you send the strongest forces in as the speedbump at the onset of war? who decides, and how? this is assuming the EU ever managed to figure out how they'd build and maintain a standing army.. where does it come from? what language does it speak?
some of the leave folks are surely nationalist, probably racist, etc, but i do think there's a reasonable argument for more sovereignty, especially from the countries on the top end of the resource pile, if not solely because of the universal gridlock.
GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG
I like the idea of an EU
I think this one may have been implemented poorly though. At some point, we need to have some sort of diplomatic and economic unity among nations. The EU is a good idea, and so is the UN, but both are lacking something. Could it be neutrality that's lacking?
China's OBOR (One Belt One Road) initiative is the most sane
…proposal on the planet right now. And China is willing to build out the infrastructure to make it possible. Uniting the world by connecting all people and markets and cultures, even the landlocked ones, to one another via infrastructure. The idea is to bring opportunity and independence to the people in undeveloped nations by giving them a 21st century infrastructure connected to all of the Eastern Hemisphere. Peace cannot be established when there are tragic levels of inequality in the world. It's a staggering investment they are making.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
One world order? No thanks.
People can't even manage and wrest control of thier little blocs. EU is homogeneous. Makes sense for them to forge a working agreement. The entire world sounds more like domination and a giant blender.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Europe hasn't been homogeneous
Since the first modern human tribe wandered in from Central Asia.
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
The EU countries
are more homogenous then this country will ever be. Joining the EU requires compliance with minimum common standards.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
If they can't get the guys in the City in line
i.e., not having them run everything--BRexit will end up being nothing but a Trump-like distraction.
In other words, you can't take back your sovereignty while simultaneously allowing a bunch of bankers to rule you.
In the end, it doesn't matter whether those bankers are the same nationality as you or not.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Distant rulers
The more distant rulers are from those they rule over, the less the needs of the "peons" matter to those rulers. How well does your state represent you compared to your town? How well does federal government represent you compared to your state? Imagine just how corrupt a world government would be.
No thank you. A world government would be no more accountable to you and I than international corporations.
China is several milleniums old.
I love their history, but there are a few yellow flags. They understand warfare at different angles. A big one is economic. I follow them cautiously.
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Single currency without political union
is a big thing that's wrong, though Britain, of course, never gave up their monetary sovereignty.
Europe is not made up of states as Americans
know the term. They are made up of sovereign nations. These nations are centuries old. Look at their histories. Some of them have fought each other over the centuries, too. I'm watching the developments as I don't really know their economies. Rec'd!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Kind of how the USA is gridlocked
into Union and Confederate states and nothing gets done. Let the Confederates leave!
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Sometimes...
...the people favor things that are ignorant, racist, and not sophisticated enough to get beyond the sloganeering. Sometimes being against what the Establishment wants is just reactionary mob rule. The pro-Brexit forces made all the same arguments as Trump -- nationalist, racist, anti-immigrant and anti-regulation arguments that should be met with drision in the 21st Century, but unfortuantely resonate with people who feel they're losing and they're angry and they'll vote for anyone who expresses anger even if they're not making sense.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
Self Determination is the most important Human Right
…that the species, as a group, possesses. It's what the Declaration of Independence was all about. And the revolutionary war. It's the issue in Scotland, and Ukraine, and anywhere where Referendums and votes of No Confidence are cast. Those times that the people as a majority are denied the Human Right of Self Determination, centuries of human tragedy ensue until there is either a redo or a total genocide. Self Determination is the only path to peace.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Exactly. I don't know d!ck
about this issue, couldn't care less, and believe it amounts to jack either way. But, hey... maybe the Brits are #FeelingTheBern. Welcome to the revolution!
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
The revolution is coming from the other side
This is Trump style nationalism.
It is a rejection of the last 40 years of Neoliberalism just the same.
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
The elites
are out of touch. Great discussion on BBC from Labour representative.
Income stagnation and insecurity have led Labour voters to embrace an idea driven by the right.
This is the future if Clinton does not address stagnating income - which hasn't increased since 1999.
The right is going to win - they are winning across Europe. Le Pen is advancing, and the French Socialists are moving right. The UK IP just won a huge win.
And Clinton has not a clue how to address income inequality.
The "Left" is already the Right.
Witness, for instance, the protests in France against austerity measures being pushed by a "Socialist." This is the dialectic of neoliberalism and nationalism at work. The "Left" has become neoliberal, leading the rank-and-file to become nationalists, and the nationalists are right-wing populists.
'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
The center-left has failed
And the real left has no power and no voice.
That's why right-wing populists are on the rise.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around --
the idea that Hollande "failed." The alternative version is that he joined the winning side.
'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
Hollande has failed the people of France
His party is pseudo-left, neoliberal. The FN (the party headed by Marine Le Pen) is actually much more pro-worker in terms of pensions, social safety net, etc. than the Socialists and supports a less belligerent foreign policy. Her vision of France is nationalist but pro-worker. To be sure, Jean Marie Le Pen (Marine's father and founder of the FN) was and is a Reagonomics-racist and there are certainly elements of that in the party now. Marine's niece, Marion, a rising star, has a very different vision (more like Jean Marie's). However, just characterizing the FN as right wing is not accurate or adequate. Hollande? Just another psueudo-progressive neoliberal like both Clintons and Blair. In Europe and the UK, as here, if the left does not present a meaningful, coherent alternative in which working people have dencent lives then people will stumble in a different direction.
The illusion of a centre-left has failed
People see through the con of New Democrats/New Labour. The confidence of the pundits and wonks that Brexit will certainly fail has the tone and integrity of confident assertions that Trump can never win.
What does that have to do with Brexit?
Jeremy Corbyn now heads Labor -- so, you're right about that . But Corbyn wants to stay in the EU. He's not raging about open borders and too much regulation. So, what does your observation have to do with Brexit?
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
right, Corbyn is not the con man here, it's Johnson /nt
It is about the credibility
of the status quo, and its guardians.
I don't dispute that...
But, that doesn't make it better. It's simplistic sloganeering. It's not the rise of facism, but it's the same kind of nativist populism that fed facism. I'm not positing that it's a choice between one or the other, but if it were....the last great surge of nativist-nationalism in Europe was not so good for my relatives....and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing anything that even faintly resembled that.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
Sometimes people don't care
They can't fix it, and they just want to get rid of it. If that means blowing it up, so be it. I can't believe Americans haven't hit their tipping point. It appears we are better sheeples.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
We've been here before.
We've risen up against ourselves before, albeit for terrible reasons, and it was a horrific process. Nobody wants to go through that again. Also, we are the home base of the largest, best funded, most technologically advanced military in the world. Only the self-deluded want to rise up against that military on its home soil.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
There are options....
Did you join the class action lawsuit against the DNC? If not, everyone should. Declaring war againt the Democrats is as easy as voting Trump and claiming victory. As parents use to say in the olden days, 'this is going to hurt me a lot more than it hurts you".
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
That was the one time Self Determination failed in the US
Think about it.
One hundred and fifty years of tragedy has ensued so far. It will end in either total genocide or a redo. But it will not stand.
(Hey, I don't make the rules. It's a law of evolutionary physics.)
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Corbyn was blase about Brexit
Unlike Cameron, he didn't stake his reputation on it.
blase' interview
Here's Corbyn a couple of days ago suggesting the UK remain in the EU. As you suggest he's not gung ho.
13 min
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwf4GNvan_M]
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Trump is still very unlikely to win.
Trump's campaign is a non-starter.
Trumpism will, though, prevail, as will someone like Trump in 2020, unless the Berniecrats can come up with an alternative. The fact that Hillary Clinton is being gifted the Presidency does not change this reality one iota.
'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
That gifting will push things further toward a split
I am still not sure of the level of "nativism" that is actually brownshirt racism and that which is , like some of the left, trying to deconstruct large-scale government. I am confused, seeing both in my family (loosely defined). But there is much broadbrushing going on; individuals may have very different views other than anger and frustration. Those many of us share, same in Brexit vote? GB will disassemble.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Trump, were he a real candidate
and not merely playing a foil to Hillary, could indeed win through cratered turnout. IOW, everyone gets so disgusted they stay home; the small, enthusiastic minority of voters who supports him wins the day.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Er...what's wrong with protesting against austerity measures?
sounded to me like that new law was total shite.
good on the French for protesting it, unless there's something about it I'm not understanding.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Neoliberals include tRump and libertarian "free market" ideas?
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
Even the IMF now says Neoliberalism is the path to ruin.
Brexit is a reaction to the consequences of of Neoliberal policies. So is the popularity of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders and the lethal blows that both US parties have suffered. These are all reactions to the consequences of Neoliberal policies.
Even the IMF Now Admits Neoliberalism Has Failed — Fortune
IMF Report on Neoliberalism's Failures Is Revolutionary — Haaretz
Hillary is not the fool, however. The American people are. They had 250 years to make certain that each new generation was healthier, more educated, and more secure than the prior generation. That is the key to continuous civilization. If the people fail at that, they fail utterly.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
The IMF is a trusted source? I disagree
with including Senator Sanders' agenda as neoliberalism. Perhaps someone should ask him?
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
Reread and parse.
It was an overly complex sentence. Sorry:
What Bernie is fighting against would not exist but for the Neoliberal policies that have crushed the futures of the American people.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
The IMF paper came from its' research arm, not its'
political arm.
The political arm walked it back.
The IMF is split it seems - to some degree. Several years ago a similar thing happened when the research arm wrote an article in favor of capital controls in certain circumstances - especially for developing nations like Brazil.
But the political arm told Brazil: "No way Jose".
I am not sure I understand this correctly, but from what
I remember, staff members, who produce "research papers" in the IMF that are not viewed favoritely along the political lines of their superiors, lead to early retirement for some researchers. ... especially for those from "banana republics".
Right you are. But...
...the IMF is not a nation-state or a ruler. It's a carnival barker, with multiple personality disorder, standing outside the world's largest payday lender.
Once a sovereign nation is lured inside and borrows money (largely because it personally enriches national politicians), the IMF sends out the goons of the World Bank to collect. That's something we learned from Perkin's "Confession of an Economic Hitman." The corrupt politicians of Greece took the money, so did Argentina's and Ukraine's and every other suffering bastard on the planet. Now the One Percent own their natural resources, public works, and cultural treasures.
Yellowstone and Yosemite (or their commonwealth equivalents) will be up on the auction block before this is over for the American people.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Agree with you there
The "left" in most European countries, like America, isn't Left at all. They've become center-right generally, and pretty decidedly Right on economic matters -- the issues that are driving popular discontent.
Without a Left alternative, the 1% are giving us a choice between Right and Far Right. When Right fails, where will people go? They're being herded toward the fascist extremes. We've seen this happen before. It doesn't turn out well.
Please help support caucus99percent!
The New Labour Blairites neoliberals
who lost to Corbyn want him to stand down. I do not understand why the left here and everywhere will not take on the globalizing neoliberal/neocon's 1%er's posing as moderate or center. The internecine fighting in the Labour party is much like what were seeing here. Seems to me to be ass backwards politics for the left factions to use fear of the lunatic end of the RW to fall in line and call for unity and go along with austerity and endless war.
New Labour is blaming Corbyn because he would not 'reach across the isle' in unity with the remain Tory factions. Why blame this on the voters who rejected the EU. They can't all have been bigoted nationalistic fascist's. People have had enough of these anti-democratic global bankster's who rule the world. To many people they are just as scary as the lunatic fringe. Centralization is not always a good thing when people everywhere are denied a democratic choice.
I remember in the last election in the UK the Blairite's were pumping out UKIP fear like crazy. How many seats did UKIP gain vs. Labour? Greece's election was the same wall to wall fear of the extreme right. People did not turn to the faicist party they elected the left-wing Syriza party. I agree with you Doc. Cliniton/Blarite, neoliberal's who only offer austerity and bloody endless war should not blame the voters for voting against them. If Trump wins it's not the populist democratic voters fault for not being able to stomach the lesser evils of the Clinton's machine. Labour should stop appeasing the neoliberal/necon oligarch's posing as the Left and build Labour into a viable alternative.
What does a Brexit victory mean?
Ultimately I don't think anyone knows.
The only thing for certain is that the markets bet wrong. VERY, VERY WRONG!
This past week the markets spiked on expectations that the British voter would believe the scaremongering and vote Bremain.
They were wrong. British voters didn't believe it, or didn't care, and now the markets will panic sell because they are on the wrong side of a bet.
That is assuming that the establishment won't just rig a close vote for Bremain like they would in the good 'ol U. S. of A.
It's a lot harder to do that
with paper ballots.
I have been following this as I followed the referendum for Scotland to separate from the UK and be its own country. The fearmongering seemed to win then, but I don't know that it's taken hold this time. Seems to me one should be for their exit--being part of a group seems to me would make it easier to eradicate borders and sovereignty.
Some predictions
Central banks will flood the markets with liquidity. My guess is the impact is limited.
And buy stradles on just about every fx/Pound you can find.
Look at the futures markets
They are on the verge of crashing right now.
And what do
you think the central banks will do as a result?
S&P down 3 percent. It will be ugly - but I doubt its October 1987.
The first one to panic, wins
S&P futures now down 4.5% and dropping
Nikkie is down 7% - the most since Japan suffered an earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear meltdown
Down 2%
Pound has recovered some. US stocks down 2%.
Might get worse before the close - and this is bad - but a meltdown it is not.
There's no future in capitalism.
Futures markets, now there's a concept.
'French theory is a product of US cultural imperialism." -- Gabriel Rockhill
Good point
Capitalism as currently practiced is far too abusive and exploitative and depends upon unlimited growth and resource degradation. We need a new sustainable economic model as we transition into a post-industrial civilization.
Could this be hedge funds, short sellers and those
invested in gold will make huge profits? We can see who the losers are, those who bought into the "smoke and mirrors" of derivative schemes and the wisdom of "free markets" and greed.
As Alan Greenspan said after the 2008 crash, "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms,"
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
Well, the Pound is crashing
(On the London Forex market.) and the Dow futures could be down 800 to 1,000 by the time the Market opens in NY.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Of course. Britain must be PUNISHED...
Just like Greece.
And anybody else who challenges the inevitability of global corporate rule.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Luckily....
The UK is not as easy to punish as Greece. They never joined the Euro luckily. Plus, too many big financial companies are based there. Punishing the UK means punishing the world. I would hope that TPTB are not crazy enough to try it.
War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series
According to this, the vote is advisory and not
mandatory and that politics will take over. Don't know if its true or not.
http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2016/06/14/can-the-united-kingdom-...
It isn't mandatory, but it is a mandate
It's hard to see how a UK government can ignore this. This is a process that will take some years -- but, if a gov't has any interest in staying in the EU, it will have to have a new vote. I think the only way that comes about is if there is a new EU treaty.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
Brexit map
Yellow is leave?
Or blue? What's up with Scotland?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Yellow is stay
Yellow is to Remain in the EU. Scotland is the one part of the UK that is not Eurosceptic.
War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series
Scotland was always pro-Europe
As was Northern Ireland. Both areas are now more pro-EU than they were when the country voted in 1975. The rest of the 'country' has moved significanty in the other direction.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
Is that more anti-England
than pro-Europe? Longer histories of meddling.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
gjohnsit: rec'd! Make sure you explain the
color coding. Thanks!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
It's almost over
INCREDIBLE
Been glued to beeb online - gobsmacked!
Can't believe what we're seeing - so glad I'm not a stockbroker.
Tomorrow is gonna be amazing...
BTW: OT to this, but does anyone know how accurate this blogger is?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-pappalardo/has-obama-been-misleading_b...
I googled him
He is a graphics designer by trade. He also published this exact article over at LOF earlier in June. His tip jar was hidden, but he was not banned.
I believe this article is wishful thinking at best. If Obama allows Hillary to be indicted, testimony in court could prove even more damaging to him than if he somehow stops her indictment. His history is on that side. Carl Levin's Senate committee sent enough information forward to the DOJ that they could have handed down indictments to bankers. I believe Obama had a huge hand in stopping them. Still, it is a possibility that he will allow the FBI and DOJ to proceed.
The other possibility is that Obama allows the DOJ to indict key associates of Clinton without Clinton herself being indicted. That presents a very interesting scenario, politically, as to how much damage would fall upon her. Perhaps such a scenario would damage her and Bill's power to such an extent that they would no longer control the Democratic party. Then Obama has the opportunity to fill that power vacuum.
The writer misses one point that I have made and that is there is no way that the establishment and Obama are going to allow Bernie to be the nominee. The establishment is neo-liberal and so is Obama. Bernie is not. The neo-liberal power structure must be preserved at all costs.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Well as I'm
50% Welsh I'm happy to see my ancestors current evolution voting Brexit. I may be a whatever you call it but I am all in for for any decentralization of the powers that rule the world. I have no political affiliation at this point with the internecine absurd political breakdowns of mass deception on the so called left right or 'moderate' choices we are given globally that support the intolerable status quo, the infamous 'world as we find it'.
Who gives a rats ass if IKIP or the rabid Republicans in the US are for decentralization because anti immigrants or racists are for or against Brexist or breaking up in the grip of centralized politics. Why continue down this road? Why not break up these too big's that rule the world including the EU. Like the Davos, IMF, World Bank crowd is somehow better then the RW lunatics we fear so much. Such a false choice.
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. I cannot root for any of these fuckers who would have you believe that people need to knuckle under and accept this nasty centralized world we live in as better then the alternative. The argument which plays the left with the fear of the right. Reality is not binary and politics that pit us against each other for political stances does nothing to break down the grip of the entities that proclaim inevitability and offer nothing but fascism corporate global rule Davos style.
So there you go. I'm rooting for Brexit. So what's up with the Scots people? I have no idea why they would be so into supporting the EU? Man oh man do we as humans need to stop believing in the current political breakdowns of mass deception and stop supporting any movement that tells you to be afraid of busting up centralization of the powers that b could be worse oh yeah.
The Scots
see this as a way to get independence from Great Britain,BBC reporting many in Northern Ireland want the same.
I'm confused
how will staying in the EU help the Scots or the Northern Irish get independence from Britain? I'm confused with this line of reasoning. Why would they think the EU is any way to independence. Seems to me to be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe all of us globally including the people in the US should stop thinking of politics a zero sum game where the measure of reality is gauged and calculated by the fuckers who rule the world.
I agree with you
but majority of English voted to leave and majority of Scots to remain. I believe the logic is they are once again being forced to follow England which could force another vote for independence if they win they would still be in the EU(maybe short term) but separate from England. Which is what most Scots have wanted for about a 1000 yrs.
The Scotts were convinced that they couldn't
break from England because they couldn't break from the Pound and have their own currency in a globalized world.
So, they think they can break with England and adopt the Euro instead.
Of course, they could have their own currency, but understanding why they could requires looking at how sovereign currencies and trade under a floating exchange rate system actually works.
But unfortunately, even the "left" is stuck in outdated gold standard and fixed exchange rate mentality, and continuing this confusion is essential in continuing austerity arguments, so the MSM, our politicians, etc.... continue to act like they really don't understand the difference.
The EU is a large market and Scotland is a net exporter
that's part of the equation.
Part of it may be psychological and pragmatic too.
If England is the country that has historically been the bully, you need alliances in order to keep the bully in check, and perhaps there's a view that the EU is a more neutral broker than England. At this point too, the EU may be even more favorably inclined to supporting an independent Scotland. The bigger issue is the common currency.
I thnk that's just wrong.
They like being part of Europe, irrespective of the relationship with the English -- although, being part of the EU meant greater respect for their rights. The EU has long been a beacon of freedom indeed for minorities and for the economically repressed, but it has seemed to lose its way in recent years. The European Court of Justice has still been a real stalwart, but the other organs have largely been captured by the economic elites who have favored the German agenda.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
Yes they like being
part of Europe not England, The history between Scotland and England has proved this,as well as the recent vote for independence.
Except...
The vote for independence failed.
Representing the 99% at the Dem Nat'l Convention in Philly.
It failed
because of scare tactics and southern Scots (lollanders) with strong English ties. I wouldn't bet on it failing next time.
It wasn't just scare tactics . . .
there are real technical economic issues involved with a split that need to be put in place first.
e.g. Scotland needs to build up its cash reserves prior to a split and it needs to commit to having its own currency.
The idea of leaving the UK and yet forfeiting monetary power to Bank of England is crazy. If Scotland is going to make a break and wants the split to be successful it needs to prepare for some short-term pain and create a situation where it can also maintain independence over its own monetary policy. Adopting the euro would also be ill-advised (just ask Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain or Italy). Monetary independence is important.
2 interesting posts on Scotland and money:
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/08/scottish-independence-myths-how-to-buy....
http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2014/03/scottish-independence-myths-national.html
The site has a few others as well.
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