How I plan to vote, and why I'm here.
The other day I introduced myself. Someone read what I said, and indicated that they thought I might have come here to convince you all to vote for Hillary Clinton. That isn't the case, actually I came here because there's nobody to talk to in the real world around me, and I wanted to speak to progressives like myself.
However, I thought I would explain what I do think.
I despise Hillary Clinton. I don't simply dislike her. I feel rage when I listen to some of the things she says. I have a far more visceral response to it, because I've been effected by what she's done very personally. A student loan that I cannot clear through bankruptcy has prevented me from improving myself, and I tend to connect her directly with the lousy economy, and the prison system that we have now. I've never been in jail, but my brother went to jail over petty bullshit. He is dead now, and she owns a little piece of that. A small piece is enough to inspire my rage.
At this point, I don't believe that Trump can win this election. I didn't believe that months ago, and I'm even more certain of it now. He has no chance, and therefore my plan is to not vote if Hillary Clinton gets the nomination. If I don't vote, at least some people will understand that her lack of progressivism has cost her votes, and maybe that will inspire something.
If I think for a moment that Donald Trump will win this election, I'm going to vote for Hillary Clinton. And the reason I would do that is because Donald Trump is a monster who would get a lot of people killed. He does things to inspire the mob. Hillary Clinton is a hawk, but I suspect that with this anger management issues, Donald Trump could be worse in that area.
You should also understand that when unemployment goes up, people die. Those abstract numbers that people look at in the books have very tangible horrible effects. In many ways, the people who eventually die of bitterness and despair would have been fortunate if someone had simply put a gun to their head and pulled their trigger. Not all of them, but some.
Donald Trump is not merely a servant of oligarchy, he is an oligarch, and he is a stupid one at that. He's spent his entire life getting fat while people I knew lived in poverty and pain, and he feels smugly superior about that. If elected, he would take even more from the middle class and give it to his friends. I believe he would be worse than Clinton in that regard. She would be bad enough.
Some of the people I know and live with are just barely surviving. If you were to cut just a few medical benefits, or cut food stamps, it could eventually result in their death. I believe that such a thing would be a certainty if he were elected, and if they died and I didn't vote, I would be partially responsible. It's my duty as a citizen to vote against him.
Now some of you may not agree with that. Perhaps you will never vote for Hillary Clinton no matter what. I respect that, it's your decision. I didn't come here to change your mind. I'm simply telling you exactly what I think, and exactly what I'm going to do.
If it doesn't look like Trump will even get close, I would not vote for Hillary Clinton. If I think Trump needs to be stopped, I will.
I just hope that nobody here has any illusions about the kind of man that Donald Trump is. This election cycle, we've seen the lowest scum on the planet run for election and get a majority of the Republican vote. It's a terrible thing for America, and a terrible thing for everyone. His policies would lead to poverty and death.
Comments
Trump is awful. Hellery is worse.
At least Trump has not yet said he wants WWIII with Iran.
A real progressive voting for either of the Neo-liberal parties (dems/repubs) is insanity. YOu know, Insanity, doing the same thing over and over again...
#BernieOrGreen Go Bernie.
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
I believe that Trump is a fall guy in cahoots with the Clintons
"So, you run for president, act the fool and lose, then launch another reality show, and also get kick-backs and favors from the Foundation forever ..."
"Sounds like a deal."
I've Thought This Too
I have thought the same thing. Trump declared his candidacy the day after JEB! did. JEB! said Trump was trolling him in one of the early debates. All these people lie so much that it's difficult to know. This primary is better than reading a John Grisham novel and he's one of my favorites. I'm waiting for more clues.
I've thought it too - but I also think he might want it now...
He's so arrogant that he might decide he doesn't want to play THAT game anymore, he wants to play THIS game where he gets to be President. If I didn't have to live in this country, or one of the ones we're likely to invade, it would be absolutely fascinating to watch this election play out. It must be fun to watch this from Europe.
Too Early Too Tell
Hopefully, as time goes on, we will know more of the "truth". This primary has been a big eye opener for me in so many ways; though I know this awakening in my later years is better than never at all.
Maybe, at first, this was the deal...
but, I don't think Trumps ego will ever allow him to throw the election...not now anyway. I think he did try at first to throw it...all of the stupid stuff he was saying. But he kept on and people FLOCKED to him. As he said, he could shoot someone down in the middle of Times Square and not lose a vote... That kind of adulation is addicting.
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Well, he's a narcissist.
The thing about what your suggesting is that it would mean he agreed to run in the election, and then voluntarily lose. I'm not sure he's a big enough person for that.
I agree with replies 1 & 2
He is less likely to get us into WWIII than Hillary because he is not an acolyte of Robert Kagan, Vicky Nuland & the Neocons & he has historically been Hillary's supporter, so I think his role is to drive the vote to Hillary, and he is in cahoots with them. The system is killing us. I vote for Jill Stein.
He's also not religious... which is in his favor
So even though he's crazy, he's not trying to fulfill some Dominionist scheme to bring on armageddon and force Jeebus to come down through the clouds to magically save the believers and remake the Earth and rule for 1000 years. The arrogance of some people. If you actually believe in God, do you really believe you can force "his" hand?
Although Hillary isn't outwardly one of them like Cruz is, I have my doubts about her. Not sure if she would actually believe in it, but I think she'd work with the dominionists because she thinks she can make them serve her own ends.
No, there's no way to predict the lesser evil this time.
You are so right, there's no way to predict
the lesser evil this time, spot on comment!
We see what she'll do to even win a Primary, we've heard about the voting issues, we've heard her talk about Henry Fucking Kissinger as a friend and mentor, we've seen the video of her sickening reaction to the killing of Gadaffi, we have not seen a transcript of her love sessions with GS and the rest of Wall Street and we never will, and we have seen her dismiss Sanders platform and voters, over and over and over again with an arrogance that is just truly stunningly ugly for a supposed Democrat. No, there is no way to know this time.
While I might "threaten" the DNC in emails that I might vote for Trump, I will vote Green this time. I can't give it to him and I can't give it to her either. But I want to see her LOSE and lose badly, I want her and Billy-Bob to know the jig is up and we see through you. I want that arrogant smirk wiped from both their faces.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Arrogance indeed....
They completely ignore Matthew 24:40-44
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and don't forget.....
And please don't forget Henry Fucking Kissinger!!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Hello again, mxp
I think you have found a comfortable home here. Most of us would not dare force other people to vote against Hillary, although many of us may. Not that we see Trump as anything good, except for the upset of one of our two parties. He is a Great Unknown, but very scary because of that.
I suspect I know a little more about your circumstances than many here. You must weigh your own conscience. And things could change next month, and different calculations will be made.
I hope your lurking here has been pleasant. Your frank discussion of your opinion here is good. And welcomed.
(you may have different ideas about my smiley, but they nuance our speaking, albeit crudely.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Perhaps you should discuss your opinions with people
at dKos. What you've said is exactly what Hillary supporters over there have been saying forever. It's old and boring. And this is a poor forum for your opinion. As they say over there (incessantly), thanks for playing.
Happy, he came from there.
Do not do to him what they have done to us OT. I think he is sincere. Cut some slack.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
After several people disagreed with my assessment,
I went back and read the diary again. And I still feel the same. To me, it sounds remarkably like the newbies at GOS who had experiences that made them love Hillary. Like the 17 year old who told us about Hillary coming over to him over and over again while her husband was at a campaign stop. Hillary was there to make important contacts, not spend every available minute with the same young person. Yeah, I really believed that story!!
And this story is the same. If you don't vote for Hillary, we'll end up with Trump. That's the theme. Couched lovingly in fear mongering.
Should we all think alike? Of course, not. But I've read this story over and over again. It's written in a different form, but it's says the same thing. However, if Hillary gave a shit about people in despair, she would have pushed for different policies. But she didn't. You want to instill fear? Read about the effects of all the policies Hillary has backed. Sometime ask me about the effects of welfare reform. Does anyone think that may have caused despair and bitterness and death?
I appreciate all those who are more welcoming than I. Sorry if I upset some.
I can appreciate how you feel but
this sounds pretty sincere to me:
Some people ARE genuinely afraid of Trump, and I get that, too. They just don't see the Hillary that is so obvious to me. Or else they believe there are some kind of checks inherent in the system, or TPP can't really be all that bad, when I know it will be.
You didn't upset me, but I do think anyone who is sincere, even if they are motivated by fear, should be allowed to speak, you know?
Peace.
I don't think that's quite fair, Happy
I certainly wouldn't want this place to turn into the reverse of DKos, banning dissent from the other side. I also think there are plenty of very thoughtful people who simply don't know what the right thing is to do in this election. Most of my life, I've always felt voting D was the lesser evil, so I did it. I no longer feel that way, but not everyone comes to the same conclusions or at the same time.
Forcing people back into that echo chamber when they are not trying to convince anyone and want to have a conversation is not very fair.
Rage against Hillary?
is not _exactly_ what her supporters have been saying forever, no. It's great to have Martianexp here, I think, exactly because he/she does not fully agree with the majority here. And you could not wish for a more articulate, thoughtful, civil expression of a different viewpoint.
It's their loss at TOP that they would not allow such a voice to even be heard.
Gandalf and Saruman unite, demand to bring back Greywolfe359!
I don't agree with the author
I don't agree with the author's conclusions but it's a thoughtful essay worthy of discussion. Your reaction to it makes me cringe.
I'm not a supporter
of Hillary Clinton. I would think that would be pretty obvious from what I said in the first few paragraphs.
May I ask then,
why not write in Sanders, or bar that...vote for Jill Stein and the Greens?
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I already told you why.
I think that Trump is likely to be far more dangerous then Hillary Clinton as President. I would think the reasons why would be very evident. He is a thug, and a narcissist, and he very little understanding of what he would be fooling with when he got into office.
As a private businessman he has busted unions, and he has already stated that he would bomb ISIS when he got into office. He could just as easily be more warlike then Hillary Clinton than otherwise. He would definitely be worth in his economic policies.
Jill Green isn't going to win. If Sanders has any shot at winning I'll vote for him. If he doesn't, and it comes down to a contest between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, then I'm going to vote for the person who will kill fewer people.
If this logic is complicated for you, I think you've lost your ability to see the forest for the trees. You've been fighting Clinton for so long that you've lost the capability of seeing things clearly.
I've been sticking up for you Martian
but I think you should reconsider which of us can't see things clearly.
We are already bombing ISIS, FYI.
I can list a whole series of Clinton policies that are harmful, and in cases like Honduras and Libya, are killing people RIGHT NOW. Not to mention all the damage done by Bill Clinton. The telecommunications bill which led to our corporate media full of lies, the repeal of Glass-Steagal that led directly to the economic crash, the Crime Bill that led to over-incarceration and for-profit prisons.
Trump is an arrogant, unpredictable asshole, but he's also more isolationist and less likely to engage in war for profit. He's an idiot, but not a particularly calculating one.
You have a right to disagree, but I don't think its fair to say that those of us who see very clearly just what damage was wrought by the first Clinton administration and what would be brought by a second Clinton in office "aren't thinking clearly."
In past elections, I've often been strongly for one candidate, but haven't hesitated to support the other if the one i preferred lost. THIS election is different, Clinton is different, and if you don't see that, then that's fine. But don't presume that those of us who have thought ourselves to death about this are not thinking clearly.
I apologize for offending you
I apologize for offending you. For the record, I was specifically responding to the person who asked why I didn't just go vote for Jill Green.
I don't consider voting for her to be ridiculous, but asking me why I wouldn't just do that, as though it would solve all problems is a bit ridiculous. If Donald Trump gets elected and its worse, the fact that I voted for her Jill Green isn't going to make feel better then if I didn't vote at all. I hope you can get the connection.
Your right that this election is different. We are getting pretty late in the game for this. I don't want Hillary Clinton either, but I considered that question to be pretty strange.
I don't want to regret my vote
Like people who voted for George Bush have reason to regret their vote. If I vote for Hillary I have to take responsibility for the deaths, the destruction to our climate, and the rule of Wall Street crooks that could very easily happen. I want to keep my conscience clear. I'm voting for Jill Stein if Bernie isn't there.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Her name is Jill Stein, not Jill Green
Really?
Donald Trump is a dolt who is in cahoots with BillnHill, you know they all cooked this up one night over martinis, trying to figure out how to make Hillary look more appealing as a POTUS candidate than her ever-present negatives would appear to be ready to permit. And now he's having second thoughts about throwing it like a dutiful friend might (because megalomaniacs don't have real friends anyway, do they?) Nobody in this little charade ever expected the American people to support him in such ridiculous numbers. And yeah, that could be really, really dangerous. But I submit to you it'll end up being more dangerous to Hillary Clinton than anybody else. Because see, here's the thing--Donald Trump is not a politician and Hillary Clinton is. That alone will get him elected. But...hooray! He's forged no alliances over his business career that could translate to "power brokering" to get actual "governance" to happen in Washington. He's a CEO with a CEO mentality. He won't get shit done. He's not quite as unpopular as Ted Cruz is, but he doesn't have a lot of friends in Congress that I know of. If he actually gets to the White House, he won't be doing it with a clear coalition, and he doesn't appear to have a clue how to build one. So I'll go on record predicting that there will be no Border Fences or Walls completed on his watch, at the end of the day, and not much else will get done, either. Not to mention, I have to wonder now if Trump isn't quite as apt to throw a few women under the bus after "meeting Republicans halfway on abortion restrictions" as his (cough) presumptive opponent could be, either. Would that I could depend on a WOMAN to not do that, but noooo. So there's that. And Uncle Henry. For starters.
So forget it. You can talk until you're blue in the face--especially when utilizing literary devices that involve evoking fear. And you are going to lose, every single time, with remarks like this one:
Camp Hillary is very, very obviously worried, and they damned well should be. Too bad they still don't understand what "condescending browbeating" is, and how doing it over and over and over and over and over and over again is not going to net them a different result. I will never vote for that woman, not now and not ever. And I am far from alone. Perhaps another approach might be warranted? As you note, time is growing short...
Espousing you opinion is fine...
There is room here for all opinions, telling anyone they are not capable of seeing things clearly because their opinion differs from yours is not cool. Folks came here to escape that form of browbeating.
Well, I guess you told me...
thank you for your time.
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It truly is a Sophie's choice, Martian
I get where you're coming from. Personally, and after much soul-searching, I'm no longer willing to take responsibility for either horrible person winning or losing. I'm voting my beliefs, which means in lieu of Bernie I'll vote for Jill Stein to help build the Green Party.
I cannot be held responsible for the death and destruction either candidate will unleash as president. Once the oligarchy bought the media and took away fair reporting, and have been doing away with honest, verifiable election results, they have hobbled us and made it so we cannot know which of the two is worse, or even which of the two legitimately wins. There is no possible way for me to determine, in reality, which of the two will cause more harm, not without a crystal ball. I personally think the TPP is going to be far more dangerous than anything Trump can do. Yes, he's crazy, and a buffoon. Yes, he's an oligarch. But Hillary is worse, in my opinion.
It's a nightmare of an election. I can't in good conscience vote for either one, so I'll put my vote somewhere it could possibly do some good, even if only to get the Green's federal funding.
It is as devil's bargain isn't it?
Yeah I can understand that. I think this is what two party politics inevitably brings to us. At some point we are going to need to figure out a better way to handle things.
figure out a better way
In the words of The Elder Rabbi, Hillel, "If not now, when?" Especially when we are faced (as well we are unless Bernie Sanders carries off the Dem nomination in Philly) with the worst evil-versus-evil electoral choice in American history. We may as well use our votes to try and create some change.
Also, martianexpatriate, our esteemed leader JtC is correct: here, you don't have to be as constrained as you had to be at TOP. Here, you can open up and consider many options that were gerichtverboten over there. And even the harshest ones of us telling you that we aren't going to have our votes chosen by fear have a friendly and happy "silver lining" for you, too: we're telling you that you don't need to let fear control your vote, either. And you don't.
I, for one, welcome you here to c99p. Please do yourself the kindness of allowing yourself to explore all available options. And do feel free to discuss them, too. If you need to ask anything before joining a major conversation, I would welcome a private message from you and I'm sure there are others who would as well.
Welcome. And Peace and Love be upon you.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Ditto, mxp
there may be some discussion over here, but it will not come to invectives. So pull a a chair up, it will take many opinions to come to a loose consensus as to where to go from now. Community is community. Every day we are all stuck with our neighbor-encounters, and would like to agree that no one walked away angry.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
HaikuKitty this is the most perfect summation I have seen.
The powers that be have created a split the baby in two option for the public. There is no winning this one, if Bernie can't pull through.
Why thank you, Betterdemsonly...
If only your name were a prediction or a reality, we wouldn't be in this mess.
Hillary Clinton is an absolute war criminal responsible
for the MURDER of tens of thousands of people and the displacement of millions. She was a leading figure responsible for the illegal and inhumane Libya war against the Libya people and their country. Her own emails tell the real story of why she and Obama pushed to bomb the shit out of that country and unleash their proxy army of terrorists and mercenaries in the country. It was (still is) another war based totally on lies for the ruling elite.
Trump, far as I know isn't a murderer. I certainly wouldn't vote for either one of them but Clinton's track record puts her evilness ahead of Trump's at this point. Perhaps given the chance, Trump could be just like Clinton, but don't disregard Clinton's responsibility for what happened in Libya, and a lot of other places like Haiti, Ecuador and Syria.
I agree, some are giving Trump credit where no credit is due. The man is a liar and will blow with the wind like a weeping willow. But Clinton has shown us what she will do, there is no doubt she will continue to murder and pillage whoever gets in her way. Voting for Clinton would be the same as voting for George Bush.
Let's not forget why the prisons are full of 'thugs' who needed
to learn how to heel.
As a matter of fact
I agree that a lot of people are going to die. War has become a bipartisan agreement. There is literally nobody I can vote for except Sanders who will do what I want, which is to end drone bombings and our constant state of militarization. We are in what appears to be an eternal state of war. I wish I could stop it.
Honestly, even if I vote for Sanders, I literally am not certain he can stop it. I don't doubt he'll try, but I think that the government is so corrupt now he may literally not be able to, especially without support from Congress. He could probably improve the situation a lot and help draw a lot of our people back, but I don't think he would be able to stop it immediately.
Certainly you know that the president of this country
is also the commander-in-chief of our military, right? Once a president receives the green light from Congress to proceed to war, he/she makes the decisions about its prosecution. Doesn't require consultation with Congress. It takes time to wind down a war, but it will get done a lot faster if someone begins the process. Hillary won't be that someone. Bernie is more likely to be that someone.
Yeah,
I'm pretty sure I know that. Unfortunately, technically we aren't even at war. In fact, these days we are almost never at war. We are "mobilized."
I suspect that when Sanders gets into government he cold very immediately make improvements, but he would also be drawn into the same silliness that Obama was. It would be interesting to see just how much of a mess it becomes.
reads like
a tragedy-as-farce rerun of 1980. "Reagan, as far as I know isn't a murderer. I certainly wouldn't vote for either one of them but Carter's track record puts his evilness ahead of Reagan's at this point."
Sorry, Hecate, that's pure nonsense
and I think you know it. Reagan had a track record - he was Governor of California - and anyone who had been paying attention could see what his policies would do to the country at large.
The damning term applied to Carter wasn't "evil", it was "ineffectual". (And he was the incumbent, which neither of the two media darlings is.)
I don't think there's ever been quite so dreadful a choice in the history of this country.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
It's really disturbing
That people see Trump as somehow a better choice because of his lack of experience in governmental office. It's like watching a bunch of kids playing with lighters; "hey, let's see what this does!" Or alternately: "hey, this guy is crazy as fuck, he'll make good TV while we're waiting for the new seasons to start."
Carter got in trouble for, among other things, refusing to rubber stamp pointless destructive pork barrel dam projects. I'd hardly call that "ineffectual," though "not going along with the program" does qualify.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
It's Mrs. Dracula vs. the Wolfman
Now playing at the Metroplex near you, and running till November.
That's the kind of choice they're forcing on us.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
not nonsense at all
I was there. The left was livid with Carter. He was supporting the junta in El Salvador. He had been puppeteered by Kissinger/Rockefeller into permitting the Shah into the US. The Egypt peace deal was regarded as a betrayal of the Palestinians. He was mucking about in Africa. Shipping weapons to Indonesia for use in East Timor. Renewing "the Great Game" in Afghanistan. Etc., etc. All the arguments set forth today about The Hairball, were set forth then about Reagan. I know. Because I then made some of them. He can't be any worse. He's a buffoon. He can be controlled. He doesn't really mean what he says. Maybe he'll help bring on the revolution. Etc., etc.
The Hairball, he too has a track record. And anybody can see. What his policies would do. To the country at large. And, the world.
I have never voted for any Clintons, and I am certainly not going to vote for this one. But neither am I going to blind myself to what The Hairball is. Pure, eager, Thanatos.
The brown people, down there in the streets, in southern California, they know what he is.
Thanks, hecate
that's really quite interesting.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
I was there, too
and a lot of that "livid" and "anger" was media driven.
Please, don't even pretend that wasn't a major factor, far more than "media" is today. It took forever to vet all the bullshit that was spewing, when it spewed pre-Internet.
you
can't possibly be seriously claiming the "media" was on Carter for "supporting the junta in El Salvador. He had been puppeteered by Kissinger/Rockefeller into permitting the Shah into the US. The Egypt peace deal was regarded as a betrayal of the Palestinians. He was mucking about in Africa. Shipping weapons to Indonesia for use in East Timor. Renewing 'the Great Game' in Afghanistan." The only people who were knocking him for those things were those in the backwaters of the left media. Which is where I was.
I thought it was about the Iranian hostage crisis
That's what I remember people being angry about wrt Carter, in a more mainstream sense. The rest of this that you describe does sound oddly like Clinton.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
I know that was all about the Shah
But I doubt that most USians understood it that far.
Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.
Voting Is A Requirement!
"...If I don't vote, at least some people will understand that her lack of progressivism has cost her votes..."
This is the reason I support those who will vote 3rd party this election. I have done this myself since 1980 when the 2 major parties fail to deliver a candidate I can support. I still vote, and these votes get counted. Both parties can then see the numbers of those they failed to convince to support them, and it just might have been enough to have swung the election the other way.
Not voting doesn't register in this same way, for there is no record that you as an active voter even exist. You might as well be one of the infamous Mayor Richard J Daley voters from when The Machine ran Chicago.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
I agree neoconned...
Not voting doesn't tell them anything.
But seeing a surge for a third-party might get some notice. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they care. But I still want it to be obvious that I'm not apathetic, I'm angry as f**k. There is a big difference there.
Absolutely. N/t
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
So long as
Trump isn't close to winning, I'm all for making the best statement we possibly can.
For the record, when Hitler was elected, he was a buffoon. He ran on Jew bashing instead of kicking out all the Muslims. When elected, they allowed him in and gave him access to certain government institutions. The Weimar government was gradually overthrown, judges replaced and justice subverted.
Yes, I'm absolutely saying that Trump is a threat to Democracy itself. I don't know that he would do that, but I think its very possible. I don't believe Hillary would take it that far. She wants to subvert the system. He is so far outside the system, that he would likely burn the place down to get what he wants.
You're giving him way too much credit
The Presidency of this country is not a dictator.
To be fair
neither was Hitler when he wedged his way to become Chancellor. Where the Trump/Hitler parallel falls apart is in Hitler's clever ability to work from within the political system, manipulating every alliance and every internal power conflict to his advantage. This characteristic insider power playing is far more Hillaryesque than Trumpesque. Hillary is the insider; Trump, not at all.
Trump = chaos, unpredictable yes, but limited by sheer incompetence and the fact that there are still honest civil servants, bottom to top, who will hedge, whistle-blow, resign or simply refuse if pushed too far toward unconstitutional or immoral actions. Shrub ran into a few, Nixon more than a few, not as many as there should have been, but they slowed down Bush's mania a bit, and they brought Dickie down.
Hillary = highly competent insider-connected cold calculated incremental MIC free-market neo-con imperial interventionist regime-changing expertise perfected in a way we may not have seen to date. She is, in my opinion, the more dangerous of the two. See Henry Kissinger for confirmation of that!
But I'm not going to agonize over who to vote for. I will vote for Bernie if he's on the ballot. I will not vote for, and therefore not be responsible for the actions of either Trump or Hillary. There are Greens out there who are respectable enough to deserve my vote, and I will have no anxiety over doing so, come what may.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
We need to take down the Ds and show them it is from the left
When Hillary loses, it must be clear that the left took her down, and by voting for any R or not voting at all, that message will not be sent. So vote Green, vote Socialist, or any other left party on your ballot if you can.
(edited to add-and a write in vote probably will not be counted at all, depending on your state, but the majority of them don't count them without some sort of paperwork)
Might I suggest an indictment?
I think it is all a matter of when. It is in the hands of FBI head Comey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Comey. You know Ascroft's number 2 guy. It is possible that she will avoid an indictment, but making the evidence public will be damning.
I think T. rump has a good chance of winning the GE against Hillary.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
You might be right,
although something that doesn't commonly come up(that I've seen) is the fact just the name Clinton will bring out the republikkkan base no matter who their nominee is. They were smart(?) enough to say no to a third bush and damn well don't want another Clinton in the WH. Whomever gets the WH is gonna have to deal with Obama's war right fackin' quick. Forget funding for anything BUT the War Machine, it'll get ugly, fast.
peace
Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .
Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .
If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march
Let's Get Real
If no major bankster was perp-walked by the FBI, what makes you think that someone with even MORE connections to power like Hillary will?
Obama's DoJ is an incredible disgrace in that medical marijuana dispensaries or whistle blowers are seen as more of a threat than a conspiracy of bankers plotting to steal from the entire national population. He is as corrupt as those he has refused to indict much less prosecute, and he won't be going after Hillary either. She is one of the protected members of the cabal as is he, else the GOP would have impeached him by now. They are clearly under orders from Big Money not to interfere with him.
TPTB don't care what kind of criminal rules the nation, as long as they benefit. But take from them, and see what happens to you. Right, Bernie Madoff?
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
look at Comey
He's a republican through and through. And he can take down Hillary. I think he's waiting. But I've been wrong before, all I know is the evidence alone will hurt her chances in the GE.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Balderdash!
Comey is bluffing. He's got nothing that he's going to use. The Convention will conclude, and everyone will wait for him to act...and wait...and wait...
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
How do you know that, again?
How Do You Not Know?
There is a dearth of media support for an indictment, and one can be certain that the alleged head of the Democratic Party (Obama) is under strict orders from the real head of the Democratic Party (DWS) to not interfere with the coronation.
If Obama and the Democrats took the slam dunk impeachment of war criminals off the table, you can be certain that Hillary's emails aren't going to be on the table either. You and I are not part of the club for whom the law has no meaning. Hillary is.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
thank you
I see things like you do. I'm totally uninspired by lesser-of-two-evils voting, and have often thought that Hillary carefully calculates just how little less evil she needs to be.
But the repubs have sunk to new depths of unacceptable.
I won't vote for either.
I won't vote for either. Hillary is dangerous to the lives of people outside of this country and Trump is dangerous to the lives of people inside this country. Frankly, I'd rather see Trump elected so that we don't push our psychosis on our people. You should reap what you sow.
That said, Bernie ain't done yet.
Hillary sure as hell is not the answer
if you are looking to not have even small cuts, those are EXACTLY what she will do, and tell us all how it just had to be done to save American power across this globe. Although she'll use that tired old "freedom" shit that they all use to do that. Or better yet, and she's already doing this, she will tell us all how naïve, idealistic, childish and idiotic we are to even think that social services will not be cut. I mean after all, we have a $19T debt load now due to their policies, what better excuse do they need?
She is part of the reason that your friends are struggling, but not only for the things her idiot husband did while in office, but because she wants that POTUS slot in the White Hut and she has done whatever she needed to do to get this far with the donor class. And she'll want a second term, of course.
They count on us thinking like this. They put Trump in here so that we will. They are down to using Tea Bag fear tactics and they think it will work. Look how well it HAS worked for the Tea Bag backers? While we like to think we're smarter than them, fear tactics do tend to work, rather well, and no thought required either, just pure unadulterated FEAR.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
But also please know
I really DO understand this one not being an easy or clear choice AT ALL. I have struggled with thinking I won't actually vote Dem this time to keep the Repugnant out. My whole focus since about 2010 was to see the Tea Party be defeated, so I do totally get the heartache of not voting Dem. I simply can no longer vote for their party, not after they have shown us nothing but contempt so openly. Maybe I could stomach it if they were better liars about it, like they used to be.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
WHAT???
Maybe I could stomach it if they were better liars about it, like they used to be.
"You fooled me once, so PLEASE fool me again for my peace of mind???"
Oh, the Humanity!
I understand your pain, but going backwards is not now an option. We have no recourse but to forge ahead. Our future demands it.
Edit: I must walk my talk.
/S
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
Well, that was actually sort of tongue in cheek
here you know, so if you choose to think I want to be fooled again, you go right on ahead. At least in the past Democrats DID used to SEEM like the party of the people - all that talk of Hope and Change after all got Mr Obama elected not just once, but twice.
I am not advocating going backwards at all, and if you think that, then you didn't read my first post that this one was a reply to. I am simply stating that for others who feel far more threatened than I do personally by a T Rump POTUS they have every right not to vote the way I will and take the potential risk of a Trump. And I'll be voting Green, thank you very much.
Damn, I did figure in this place a tongue in cheek remark like that would not get some hostile snarking bullshit response, but I see now I may need to be just a bit more "mindful" in what I say and how I say it. But for me, or anyone else out here, to blatantly shit on someone who we're maybe trying to have a conversation with? That would be the height of arrogance, right up there with that Warmongering Witch who may become our next POTUS.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Next Time
If you want to ensure we know that your lengua is firmly implanted in your malar, you might remember to include a "/s" tag so that there is no misunderstanding.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
Sure, keep one thing in mind.
I can sit here and say what Trump is and talk about all this. Then I can go vote for Sanders in the Primary.
If he doesn't get in as candidate, it's Hillary versus Trump.
If I choose to vote for Hillary then, Sanders still lost.
I didn't hurt Sanders by saying any of this. If he loses the primary, there is nothing I can do about that. People seem to forget that an awful lot.
I can decide who is worse and make a decision based on that. I can choose to make a statement vote for someone else, but anybody he kills is still dead, and I consider Trump to be the most dangerous person who has ever run for government in America. He is the very picture of a would be dictator. The comparisons are so massive they are terrifying.
This is just exactly what the run of many dictators looks like. The muslim bashing, the mexicans bashing, the ugly mobs, the threats against protestors. The further into this process we get, the scarier he is.
Hillary is awful, but I don't see her overthrowing the government or attacking democracy itself.
He is absolutely capable of doing that.
Overthrow?
The government? (I take it you mean ours. Others obviously don't matter) Never. Too valuable for her to (continue to) subvert for the MIC free-market imperialism that rewards her so well, and kills anything in its way. Intervention, subversion, (Clinton Global Initiative, anyone?) all for the glory of American exceptionalism. A bit more than awful, I'd say. More like murderous. Vote for it at your own risk of nightmares over responsibility.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
Welcome Martianexpatrite
I don't agree with you but I also don't want to live in an echo chamber. There are plenty of essays here that speak to not voting for the lesser of two evils. Take a look at them if you like. Otherwise, welcome to C99 where honest differences of opinion are welcomed and debated. I'm having a good time here, and I hope you will too.
-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
Take your pick
Pontius Pilate or Judas.
I read those two as the heroes of the story
Without them there would be no salvation.
Not that I believe in that stuff.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
I'd rather have 4 yrs of Trump than the rest of my life w/ DNC
if Hillary wins it'll vindicate the awful course the Democrats have set themselves on. I don't know for a fact that Hillary would be worse than Trump but I'm pretty sure that all the Dems care about is winning the election, not the issues, not any kind of vision....just winning and having power. To do what? They don't care! Which is why we have Hillary in this position during the primary season.
Generally we believe we have the answer, in a Bernie type. Electing Hillary (because we fear what would happen with Trump) would remove the possibility of that answer for years and years. Personally I think that's more dangerous to us than 1 term of a Republican.
I agree - four years of a rebug may be way better than hrc
I have thought long and hard about this. TPP is a big one. Trump will likely be the nominee. Do I not vote, do I vote for Jill, do I write in Bernie OR do I vote against hrc? I fear for our country if she wins. And then there is, yes, wait for it, ta da... climate disruption. And we have front row seats for all of it.
Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation
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While Trump may not have
a political career to base our opinions on, he has had a pretty public career.
In his recent past, he has a habit of busting unions, beating up immigrants, and intimidating people who work for him. Many of the people who have done business with him, ended up suing him.
What do you suppose he would be like as president?
Trump's weirdness can be undone
Hillary's "same old..." will be seen as normal while anything Trump does will be seen a lot more clearly. The "same old..." is a continuing menace.
And Hillary has a habit of demeaning
PoC, not REALLY supporting woman OR children... and LYING through her teeth about really stupid things...as well as really important and life threatening things.
She is NO better than Trump...and she MAY be WORSE.
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First Nations News
Clinton has a habit of destroying nations.
Compare and contrast.
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Vote Smart - Just the Facts - 40,000 politicians by name or zipcode
Trump
has only ruined people's lives which is better. Unless you consider that well, he hasn't been elected yet.
You can make a lot of assumptions, and it's certainly fine to hate what Hillary Clinton is done. With far less opportunity he has done really despicable things, and comparing what he's done with less power is probably not going to give you a fair idea of what he is capable of.
In his brief political career, he has already said things which could be interpreted as inciting mob violence. He offered to pay for legal representation for someone who beat up a protester. He's pretty much in his own league.
Were he to be elected, he would have an amount of power he's never had before. I'm not sure what he would do with it.
If he won, and that's a big "if", [edit]
he'd be completely neutered by not having either the D machine not the R machine to achieve anything. The same can't be said for Clinton.
It's my opinion that the Clinton dynasty has to be stopped cold in its tracks no matter what the short-term costs.
I've followed Trump through the primary process, and he's not nearly the knuckle-dragger he would like the real deal knuckle-draggers would like to think he is.
[edit]
Please don't mistake me for having any love for the man, it's just that in this case he's the lesser of two evils.
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Vote Smart - Just the Facts - 40,000 politicians by name or zipcode
I don't agree.
For one thing, it isn't true that stupidity would render someone incapable of doing damage.
For another... he is not a knuckle dragger. He is almost incalculably worse then that. He's completely insane.
So far I've seen him incite mob violence. He has offered to pay for the legal expenses of people who punch out protesters. He said this on stage, while being recorded. Do you suppose that will go over well during the general election?
Clearly we have very different ideas of the man. They are so far apart that I have to question how much you know about him. I will now be called judgmental. Feel free. I make judgments. I stand by them.
At this point I guess I just walk away and we can watch.
I don't expect him to win. I find it very disappointing that people are so entrenched in their opinions after years of dealing with Hillary Clinton, that they choose to ignore what this man is.
The comparisons that have been made of Trump to Hitler are only slightly off. Mussolini is a better comparison, he was a corporatist.
Hitler got into power because they thought him a buffoon. He was allowed into certain offices and slowly took over the government.
What people are saying about him is very, very sad. I've witnessed some of the worst acts ever committed in politics in the last few months. You guys enjoy screaming at Hillary though.
Look.
We know them both quite well. We only know one of them regarding public office, and that is frightening to many of us. Trump is unfit for office, even the Republican establishment knows that, especially them. And we also know he's basically incompetent anywhere bluster doesn't rule. In fact CNN money reported that "no major U.S. company has filed for Chapter 11 more than Trump's casino empire in the last 30 years". And he lied about it, on national TV. He showed us Trump Steaks next to him at a press conference when they don't exist anymore because of bankruptcy. He is incompetent, a known liar, and he will not become our dictator. You are taking the bait of fear.
I've seen a lot of people engaging you here in a civil discussion of fact and speculation, agreements and disagreements. And now you say we're screaming. I'm calling that out of line. Go your own way, and best wishes with that, but please restrain yourself from insulting people here.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
Several
people here have come right out and stated me that it might be better to let Trump win, then to let Hillary win. If you haven't heard people say that, go down the column.
Do I think that that he would win? No, I don't. I certainly hope not.
I consider Donald Trump to be the American coming of Hitler. The main thing that prevents him from becoming that, is his not being elected.
I don't feel that I have been particularly uncivil. I made my stance perfectly clear. I want Sanders to win. I detect a certain amount of hysteria in some of the responses to me. I am a progressive, but I am very unusual compared to most of the progressives I know. I believe in my ideals enough to fight for them.
I believe that the tide is turning in this country. In four years, in eight years, we are going to have a more progressive public than we did now. I'm very worried about how things are, but I do happen to think that things can still be saved. I'm seeing an undercurrent of people here who seem to be suggesting that they don't. I'm more certain of that now then when I started this thread.
It frightens me very much that its been suggested several times quite overtly that Trump would be better than Hillary. That should frighten you too.
I'm sorry if you feel insulted, but I think it's time that reality started to settle in around here.
When somebody walks up to a microphone and suggests several times that every Muslim in the country should be deported, that isn't ok. Hillary never did that.
When somebody longs for the good old days when they could beat up protesters, and offers to pay the legal bills for somebody who beats up a protester, he's going to a place that I don't ever want to see our politics go to. Somebody further down this page said it would better to elect Trump then to elect Hillary Clinton. Want to go take a look?
You want to be mad at me, be mad. Trump is not acceptable. He is not even slightly acceptable. I never dreamed the day would come that I could go into a progressive blog, and have people make favorable comparisons between a guy like this, and Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is a horror show and always ways. She is essentially a traitor. She has pretended to be on our side, and then sold us out every time she got a chance. Trust me though, it can get worse. I think I'm speaking to a lot of people who have never personally seen real horror and death. I have, and I understand that it can come to America too.
I don't believe Trump is going to win this time, but there will be other Trumps. We need to hold this place together until we get a candidate into office who will actually represent the people. If Hillary Clinton gets elected, our job is to force her to do what is right, because that is all we can do for four years.
I'm frightened right now. I hope you are too. You sound like you do understand how dangerous he is. Understand that some around you seem not to.
We are in a dangerous place now. I hope everyone knows that.
"Hillary never did that"
I'm just wondering what part of "Hillary is a murderer" you don't understand. I'm not saying that in a demeaning way, it's just that there is solid evidence, from her own emails and on, that Hillary Clinton was the driving force behind the illegal war in Libya that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people and basically destroyed that country. She, and Obama, are just as responsible for war crimes in Libya as George Bush and Dick Cheney are with Iraq.
Why are you discounting that?
Yes,
as a matter of fact, I referred Obama myself as a mass murderer at one time on Daily Kos.
Nonetheless, neither Obama or Clinton ever walked up to a podium, and suggested that it was ok to beat up protesters. They didn't defame the process, or start talking shipping off people based on their religion. They didn't do that. No, it isn't murder, but it can cause a lot of death. Frankly, Donald Trump has been pretty thuggish even without access to a military. One has to wonder what would happen if he got his hands on it. I'm guessing that he could push the body count a lot higher.
Trump is inciting riots. I read a story the other day about increasing incidents at public schools having to do with racism, and suggested that Trump is the reason. That's just from him being in the media.
There is no doubt in my mind that if given the chance can get nice and comfy with the military should he be elected. That is pretty much what happened with Barack Obama.
You do fight for your ideals.
Hillary fights for us. I don't care to fight, and don't want anyone fighting for me, or fighting with me, or fighting at all. That's why I came here. There are far better alternatives to fighting. I like debate. There's a difference. Have a peaceful day.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
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